A Conversation with Jazz recording great, Bob Koester
by Vittorio Carli
I spoke at length to Bob Koester who owned Bob’s Blues and Jazz Mart at 3419 W Irving Park Road. Bob is also the former owner/founder of the esteemed label, Delmark Records which put out recordings by many culturally significant jazz greats such as Sun Ra, Anthony Braxton, Bud Powell, and the local luminaries, Keef Jackson, Roscoe Mitchell and Nicole Mitchell. He is one of the few nonperformers to make it into the Blues Hall of Fame.
He also was said to have a giant film collection (he originally wanted to be a film maker) and would have quasi weekly showings with guests. He invited me to attend some, but I never quite made it there.
Most of the conversation here took place on Saturday, November 3, 2018, but I came back and added chunks every time I went to his store in 2018-2020. I was going to keep adding to it but unfortunately, he passed away on Wednesday, May 12 of 2021 at the age of 88. He has left a huge mark on Chicago music culture, and he has been credited as being one if the first people to record the music of Chicago’s south side music clubs.
Can you tell me about how Delmark Records started?
I went to college in St. Louis. About a block away many great jazz musicians played including the Windy City Six which played traditional jazz. Delmar, as it was originally called was named after the Del Mar Boulevard in the black neighborhood where the jazz clubs were located. There were three great jazz clubs on that block. There was the Top Hat and the Barrel which had more modern bands, and they also sold 50 cent beers which were not so good. Jimmy Forrest was playing around there frequently, and I liked him, and wanted to record him. He later moved to New York to work with Harry Edison. After I later moved to Chicago, I ended up recording Forrest at the Blue Note Club when it was on Clark Street. The Blue Note label was named after that club. I recorded Forrest with Grant Green on guitar. But there as another label overseas with the same name, and they threatened to sue. That is why we had to add a k and change the label to Delmark. That is how it started.
What were some of the more memorable or significant recordings you put out?
Well, well early on we got the rights to a Bud Powell record, Bouncing. He has been in exile in Europe and he was trying to break his drug habit. At the time his career was suffering, and he was critically downgraded. All of his records were getting two or three stars. But the record we put out was very universally acclaimed. Downbeat even gave it 4 and a half stars on a scale of one to five. We also got ahold of the masters to the first two Sun Ra recordings. After the Transitions label went down the tubes, Blue Note got the rights to most of their recordings at the time, but they were not sure what to do with Ra’s stuff.
We also recorded Art Holdings who was a great piano player with lots of blues in his style. Marty Mcgaurd played on the tracks. I had great respect for him. He had a magazine that published articles and reviews of music by actual musicians.
Why do you think jazz has declined so much in terms of popularity?
Well it was only the most popular music form in the ’30s and ’40s. The big band stuff was enormously popular such as Benny Goodman, Duke Ellington, and Count Basie. Later on, it was just one of several genres that were popular.
What are the most popular or bestselling records at the store?
Well, the bestselling record here is The Greatest Jazz Concert Ever also called Jazz at Massey Hall which was a recording of the only time Charlie Parker, Budd Powell, Dizzy Gillespie, Charles Mingus, and Max Roach all played together. The superstar group ended up not making any money from the live show because everyone was at a big boxing match that day. We also sold many copies of Miles Davis’s Kind of Blue. No surprise there. It is the one jazz album everyone has in their collection including non-jazz fans. For a while that Norah Jones album, I’ll Fly Away was selling as much as almost everything else in the store combined.
Can you tell me about some of the celebrities that came in the store? I read that Brian Jones, Ron Wood and the Yardbirds patronized your store?
They came in, but I did not know who they were until other people pointed them out to me. Sometimes they would come in kind of disguised with big hats on. They did not want to be bothered. But you have to understand I was not a big rock fan. I did not even care for the Beatles at the start. I do appreciate them now. I am crazy about their film, A Hard Day’s Night. It is a part of my film collection which is huge. I have all tons of stuff including all of the Betty Boop shorts and the Marx Brothers films. I have people over on Fridays and we watch things from my collection. You are invited to drop by on any Friday. Cinema is my first love. Originally, I wanted to be a filmmaker, but I drifted into music.
Can you tell me about the time you met Iggy Pop?
Iggy was watching a recording session we were doing, and he came with a group of people. He was dancing around with a girl, and they were both drunk and naked and he even urinated in a glass. I ordered them to leave and said something like, “Get out of here, you and your gang of stooges.”
Most young people don’t know much about jazz. Are there any obscure or great artists that they should start with?
Well, I might start with Count Basie. Super Chief is great (He played me some of it.) There was a great combo with Carl Smith on trumpet, Lester Young on sax, and Walter Page on bass. Glen Hardman on the Hammond Five did great upright organ blues. And of course, everyone needs to hear Charlie Parker. A lot of the older musicians put him down for years, but then they finally got him. Pee Wee Russell was the best clarinet player. He worked with Louis Armstrong and Jack T. Garden. I also recommend Johnny Windhurst. And Baby Dodds has to be heard. He may have been the greatest drummer in all of jazz. He played with his brother Johnny Dodds in the King Oliver band and with Jelly Roll Morton.
You have recorded quite a bit of modern or avant-garde jazz but your tastes run more traditional don’t they?
Well, I did not get what they were trying to do at first. Most people did not understand the stuff after bebop, Dizzy and Monk. Joel Siegel taught me about it. Modern was eclipsing traditional in popularity by then, so we had to adapt.
How has jazz fandom changed?
Well. there used to be different competing camps in jazz. Some of the trad jazz people also got into swing, but the beboppers thought everything else was too square. Now more people listen to everything.
Do you prefer CDs or albums?
I can’t usually tell the difference. Some customers tell me they can hear the 1’s and 0’s better on vinyl.
Jelly Roll Morton is of course notorious for claiming he singlehandedly invented jazz. What to your knowledge were the first true jazz recordings?
King Oliver was an early pioneer, but not all of this stuff was recorded in a high-quality fashion. Jelly Roll made some important early recordings for the Library of Congress. He did twelve 12 inch LPs. Before that, he had only sung once. His recording of the song “Mister Jellyroll” is particularly significant. But the Louisiana Five probably made the first jazz recording in 1916. But jazz had been around at least since the 1890s. Then there was the Original Dixieland Jazz Band which may have even preceded them.
What do you think of newer jazz?
Well, I mostly love the earlier recordings. The new stuff varies in terms of quality, but I don’t at all care for Wynton Marsalis
What are your thoughts on the late Fred Anderson?
Well, we recorded him and was great. He had a terrific jazz club called the Velvet Lounge. Everyone would just drop in there and jam with him. I was not much into the avant-garde guys, but I liked them much more after I heard them live. I think I got it then. Another avant-garde guy that we recorded was Roscoe Mitchell. We actually put out the first AACM record, and it was a Mitchell album. We also worked with Antony Braxton. I liked Anthony Braxton’s stuff and he was a really nice person too.
I knew Keefe Jackson, and I know you put out some of his stuff.
Oh yes, he was a great guy and a model employee. He used to work for me when the Jazz Mart was on Illinois.
What were some of the best concerts you saw?
Well I prefer club gigs to concerts. I loved Count Basie at the Miller Theatre, and I saw him when I was only about 13 years old. He was with Jimmy Rushing. Big Joe Turner was also terrific
I went to the jazz fest this year. I know lots of the players at the fest used to stop by your place when it was at the old location. Were you there this year?
No. I had to work here, but I was not all that impressed with the lineup anyway. I have seen the headliner, Ramsey Lewis before. He was very straight-laced, and he never did hard drugs like the other jazz guys. You know I think one of the biggest mistakes the government did was classify marijuana as a narcotic. Lots of the jazz players did pot, and they were able to just stop easily, but once they got into heroin they were surprised they could not stop. The government should not have treated marijuana as a hard drug because it made everyone think pot and heroine were the same. This classification actually led to more heroin addiction.
So can you tell me about the current status of Delmark?
Well the studio was at 4121 Rockwell, but I just sold all the recording equipment last week on Tuesday. I kept the building, I still get rent from the building. It is the end of an era.
